User:Arrow/Petitions

OK, this wiki has gone completely and totally out of hand. How? Let me count the ways...
 * Our admins aren't nearly as active as they should be
 * CAPTCHA prompts are blocking more valid edits than spambots (if they can defeat one CAPTCHA, they can defeat it for every edit they can do. CAPTCHA should be upon login, user registration, and adding external links.
 * The URLs are half-assed and broken; the URL should read "www.magickawiki.org/wiki/User:Arrow", not "www.magickawiki.org/index.php?title=User:Arrow".
 * We have two Steam groups, one of which contains a shitton of people who aren't even members of the wiki.
 * There is nil standardization, and the admins are not setting any examples to lead by.
 * We have three admins, only two of which are currently doing something (with one being ill), and as mentioned previously, neither are as active as they should be.
 * Neither of the founders have demonstrated the requisite skills necessary to lead a wiki (activity, CSS modifications)

The signatories of this petition humbly request the following
 * Either additional admins or admins who are on often and may manage the wiki when possible.
 * The removal of CAPTCHA prompts from individual edits, and moved to the login and registration screen; CAPTCHA should appear also for any users attempting to add links to any pages outside the wiki. Additionally, unregistered users must be tightly monitored, either through CAPTCHA prompts or the removal of posting privileges of unregistered users entirely.
 * The merging of the two Steam groups to a single one consisting of active wiki users.
 * The standardization of the various templates, most importantly the monster and item templates.
 * The recruitment of knowledgeable admins who can make the wiki the best it can be.

If you think something needs to be done about this, SIGN BELOW.


 * 1) Coccan.gif  Arrow  (Talk) -- Sandbox 09:33, 10 February 2011 (PST)
 * 2) – Smashman (talk) 09:34, 10 February 2011 (PST)
 * 3) – Ket 09:43, 10 February 2011 (PST)
 * 4) – StephenSwat 09:53, 10 February 2011 (PST)
 * 5) – Cryder 10:15, 10 February 2011 (PST)
 * 6) – Kiroberos 10:39, 10 February 2011 (PST)
 * 7) – Xinhuan 11:00, 10 February 2011 (PST)
 * 8) – McLord 12:09, 16 February 2011 (PST)

Discussion with s3n5ai
Last night, from approximately, 8 to 9PM, s3n5ai and I discussed the items mentioned above. The following is a transcript of the discussion.

Never tell your password to anyone. Arrow: Hi s3. It's good to talk to you in person.

s3n5ai (2): Indeed.

Arrow: I just appended something to the petition talk section to make one thing absolutely straight - the petition isn't a declaration of war or a coup d'etat

s3n5ai (2): Well that's good.

Arrow: It's a petition. That's all it is.

s3n5ai (2): Fair enough, although I'm still confused as to why the first time I hear a suggestion is when its on a petition.

s3n5ai (2): Smash has had my email for days now.

Arrow: I wasn't aware of that.

s3n5ai (2): Yet it appears nobody has tried contacting me.

Arrow: I think that's because no one really knows HOW to contact you.

Arrow: I left you a comment on your talk page, but you never got back to me.

s3n5ai (2): Fair enough.

s3n5ai (2): You aren't from reddit I'm guessing?

Arrow: I don't even know what reddit is.

s3n5ai (2): That's how I've been talking to others

s3n5ai (2): But admittedly, I could have made myself more available.

Arrow: s3, I'd like to be honest with you about one thing - I honestly don't care if you're inexperienced in running a wiki. All I ask is that you give the 'experienced' group the requisite breathing room to help manage things.

Arrow: Please capitalize on our skills to make this wiki the best it can be.

s3n5ai (2): What 'breathing room' do you need to excercise these skills?

Arrow: Well, it depends for each of us. Smash wanted to have a go at the page CSS, I recall.

Arrow: Personally, my concern is the standardization of the data.

Arrow: A possible solution would be a standardization committee of sorts that can help set standards and avoid the wiki drifting off into ten different directions.

Arrow: I think all of us need to sit down, as a community, and sort out exactly how each of us see how this wiki should run.

s3n5ai (2): If you're talking about adding CSS to pages I believe that is already possible as a normal user.

Arrow: I'm honestly unaware, I don't dabble too much with CSS.

s3n5ai (2): And to address the latter part, it sounds like just need to commicate better.

Arrow: The wiki as a whole has been using talk pages to communicate. That's the standard that wikipedia set, after all.

s3n5ai (2): Present your standardization and explain why you think it should be that way.

s3n5ai (2): If people agree, we can implement it.

Arrow: Ket and I have been discussing standardization for a while now regarding monster templates.

Your chat with s3n5ai is now a multi-user chat.

-{DBx}-Dethklok52 entered chat.

Arrow: need more input and stuff.

s3n5ai (2): We're talking about standardizing monster templates

s3n5ai (2): Deth and I were toying with the idea of an irc chan for us to collob in.

Arrow: I commissioned one in Abxy.

s3n5ai (2): cool

Arrow: It's a small server. Not a lot of spambots will find us there

Arrow: It's host of my former home on Strategywiki.

s3n5ai (2): sweet

-{DBx}-Dethklok52 disconnected.

Arrow: But yes, an IRC would definitely be something the wiki needs.

s3n5ai (2): heh nobody is on xD

Arrow: Yeah, because Chatzilla crashed a few minutes ago.

s3n5ai (2): ah

Arrow: I already wrote a small article on IRC and how to best access it.

Arrow: I tried implementing an IRC widget but my skills weren't enough to get it in.

s3n5ai (2): You should include webchat links like it was before

Arrow: Abxy doesn't have such a webchat, it's linked in via Mibbit.

s3n5ai (2): mmk

s3n5ai (2): I'll be looking into shortening the links in the next day or 2

Arrow: I honestly don't know how to implement such a widget; Smashman appears to be the authority amongst such things.

Arrow: Kiro has an idea on how to shorten the links accordingly; he apparently is a Computer Science major.

Arrow: Far beyond my own abilities.

s3n5ai (2): I'm a web developer / CS major

Arrow: Ah, I see.

s3n5ai (2): I should be fine

Arrow: Okay.

s3n5ai (2): I'm honestly not too worried about a privacy policy at this point seeing as we are unnoffcial. If anyone wants to right one up, I am not opposed.

s3n5ai (2): write* derp

Arrow: Kiro just noted that because we don't have any copyrights, people can basically steal our text and start selling it.

s3n5ai (2): It's all open source information though. Some of the text is pulled straight from the dev's website

s3n5ai (2): the images are def straight from the dev's website

Arrow: Maybe. I honestly am not too aware of the legalities of copyleft and whatnot.

s3n5ai (2): Me neither tbh, but im not too worried about it at this point.

Arrow: This is part of the reason why I'm so strongly for the notion of having multiple admins, even if they're not bureaucrats. These leaders would manage things inside scope, and help spread the total workload around.

s3n5ai (2): That's probably going to happen at some point

Arrow: I mean, take a look at Ket and I. We found a standardization that works for the monster template, but because neither of us are admins, it's not really official and people are less likely to actually adopt the layout.

Arrow: Not only that, but there's not really much of a forum for them to discuss the pros and cons of said layout with us.

Arrow: As things stand, people are just doing things their own way. While it's a great way of obtaining content, it also means that we're really disorganized.

Arrow: And it shows.

s3n5ai (2): Yeah, I think in that situation it might be a good idea to contact an admin and explain why you think this should be implemented. Then if we agree we can make an announcment about it and people will adopt.

s3n5ai (2): It does show

s3n5ai (2): But I think we actually need more content then we do organization at the current moment.

Arrow: I don't know; content will come naturally, organization will not.

Arrow: I mean, take a look at my categories

Arrow: If the content came first, then we'd have over 9000 images to categorize

Arrow: Because I started early, however, now the workload is considerably less.

s3n5ai (2): The wiki is totally functional as far as I'm concerned. It's nowhere near complete, but if you're looking for something magicka related you'd be able to find it easily.

Arrow: The point in my categories was for the bigger picture; I forsee a future in which someone with wiki bot experience will come around and ask to install a bot that'll help navigation and cleanup of the wiki tenfold.

Arrow: And then I can see his bot relying on categories in order to ensure that the bot takes the right action on the right page.

s3n5ai (2): Sure that's all great,

Arrow: Implementing categories then would be a futile measure; the community will have been so ingrained in not having categories, and we'd have so many pages, there'd be no point.

s3n5ai (2): Nah I think people would adapt for sure, and if not they're going to have to because this isn't going to happen over night.

s3n5ai (2): But I see your point.

s3n5ai (2): But I think a large part of the wiki's success was how quickly it actually became useful to a magicka player due to its content.

Arrow: It's possible; I don't think there's a bigger source of such information anywhere else.

s3n5ai (2): Exactly

Arrow: But I don't think the wiki can be defined as "successful" at any time; all it takes is one person to organize the same information better than us, and we'll no longer have a monopoly.

Arrow: It's important to not become complacent with what we have.

s3n5ai (2): Yeah i meant to imply its early succcess

s3n5ai (2): it did take off well

s3n5ai (2): But yeah its only the beginning

Arrow: Yeah. And just because we're unofficial doesn't mean we're SEEN as unofficial.

s3n5ai (2): Totally, we're stickied on the forums and on reddit

Arrow: I do believe that, as one of the few non-Wikia wikis, we have a reputation and standard to uphold.

s3n5ai (2): I actually emailed the devs today

s3n5ai (2): regarding making it official

s3n5ai (2): the PR guy seemed to like it and forwarded the message

s3n5ai (2): Yeah

Arrow: That's exciting.

s3n5ai (2): Yep =)

Arrow: So yeah. That's why I think we need someone to accept standardization of items, even if we're unofficial and just beginning.

Arrow: A leader or admin who's recognized by the founding team who can help make decisions for when they aren't around.

s3n5ai (2): Totally, I don't think anyone was ever opposed

s3n5ai (2): I believe that will be Deth.

Arrow: He's alright, though he strikes me as a little aggressive.

s3n5ai (2): Hmm I'll talk to him. I don't want him to act aggressive towards other users.

Arrow: Arrow: Sorry about the petition, but I don't know how else to make it plain that the rest of the wiki is with me on the seriousness of the aforementioned issues.

Arrow: It's got nothing to do with you as a person, the signatories just believe that something needs to be done about these things as soon as possible. Not a month from now nor sometime this week, but right now.


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: The wiki moves at its own pace


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: as previously stated


 * Arrow: At its own pace, or the pace of its administrators?


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: at its own pace


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: if you really wanted to advance


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: you wouldnt make a whole petition page


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: you'd instead work on some of the stuff that needs to be done


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: like the stubs for instance


 * Arrow: Because it seems to me that nothing is being done at all. The wiki is moving more at your own pace instead.


 * Arrow: And there's only so much I can do with a stub when I haven't played through the game in its entirety. You know that.


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: since the captchas came up there has been no spam at all


 * Arrow: I talked it over with the other signatories. They all agree with me on this, and they've signed it to prove it.


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: thats good to know


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: its nice having this conversation


 * Arrow: Of course they are, but they're blocking our own efforts to try to improve the wiki. They're slowing us, the community, down.


 * -{DBx}-Dethklok52: bye now

Arrow: I think that was a little aggressive at the end there.

Arrow: That was today, just before you came on.

s3n5ai (2): =/

s3n5ai (2): He was a little taken aback by the petition, I must say.

Arrow: Yeahhh. That's part of the reason why I feel he needs a little more guidance.

s3n5ai (2): If it actually becomes a problem I certainly do something about it.

Arrow: As admin he represents the site as a whole, so I think it's important to get everything first before becoming...y'know.

Arrow: So I assume from what you've mentioned earlier that now's not really the time for additional admins?

s3n5ai (2): Maybe not RIGHT now. But probably in the next day or 2.

s3n5ai (2): I've got deth keeping his eye out and I've got mine as well

Arrow: That's good. I just feel that we need additional admins for approvals and whatnot...but I said that already.

Arrow: And I trust you know that I'm not that concerned right now as to whether I'm an admin or not...though admittedly, it would be nice.

Arrow: Right now, I'm just glad we're able to talk civilly about the wiki's progress like this.

s3n5ai (2): Me as well

s3n5ai (2): And yeah no worries

Arrow: Are you feeling better? I remember a while ago you were ill.

s3n5ai (2): Yeah finally, since about yesterday I've been feeling better.

s3n5ai (2): But today I was hung over as shit =P

s3n5ai (2): still kinda am actually

Arrow: That's good.

Arrow: That you're better that is

s3n5ai (2): lol yeah

Arrow: So you think you'll be around more often now?

s3n5ai (2): If there's an IRC chan people are chillin in I'll try to be there

s3n5ai (2): I didn't know there was one

Arrow: IRC chans are typically dead most of the time.

Arrow: I learned that much from Strategywiki.

s3n5ai (2): heh

s3n5ai (2): well yeah i'll be around

Arrow: Sounds good.

Arrow: Oh, I don't know if it matters or not, but for some reason I feel compelled to show you what I built with my knowledge of wikis. http://strategywiki.org/wiki/BSP

Arrow: I suppose I'm showing it to you because I hope that our wiki will look even shinier than that, which is my pride and joy.

Arrow: It took me two years to complete that article.

s3n5ai (2): Wow it looks amazing

Arrow: Thanks. Like I said, it took me two years' worth of effort to complete it.

s3n5ai (2): http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Battlestations:_Pacific/Walkthrough

s3n5ai (2): your text is center aligned on that page but not on the next

Arrow: I built that with minimal assistance from others - I look forward to seeing what me plus an entire community at my back can accomplish.

Arrow: Huh?

s3n5ai (2): Your text is centered on that page

s3n5ai (2): but not on the next (and im assuming all that follow)

Arrow: Oh, the Walkthrough page is more of an introduction to the whole game. The walkthrough officially starts on Mission 1 for the American/Japanese campaign.

s3n5ai (2): oh

s3n5ai (2): gotcha

s3n5ai (2): oh just gave you an ad click ;P

Arrow: Huh?

s3n5ai (2): I clicked your ad on accident

s3n5ai (2): on the sides

Arrow: Oh. Sorry. =P

s3n5ai (2): haha np

Arrow: It's not my wiki though - I just wrote that single article.

Arrow: Strategywiki is host to other guides similar to that one.

s3n5ai (2): yeah the article is sick

Arrow: Thanks again.

Arrow: Anyway I'd best get on an item for school. After that it's likely I'm going to unwind or go to sleep.

s3n5ai (2): Alrighty man, nice talkin' to ya

Arrow: Thanks for the discussion, and I greatly hope we can have similar discussions in the future.

s3n5ai (2): likewise

Arrow: By the way, do you mind if I put up a transcript of this on the wiki since it concerns the community as a whole?

s3n5ai (2): Nope

Arrow: Alrighty then.

Arrow: I'm off for now. See you around.

s3n5ai (2): Peace

Summary

 * Additional admins will be recruited in the next few days.
 * The primary method of communication will be Magickapedia talk pages, with Reddit being a secondary.
 * IRC channel on Abxy Efnet will be primary forum for discussion.
 * Dethklok will be the admin responsible for standardization of articles.
 * Magickapedia URLs will be repaired in the next few days.
 * The admins will be reachable primarily on Efnet #magickapedia and GTalk